Productivity Guru SMACKDOWN: Tim Ferriss v. Dave Allen

Posted on 5 Mar, 2008

43 Comments so far »

  1. Tina Russell said,

    Wrote on March 5, 2008 @ 2:01 pm

    I found your blog on google and read a few of your other posts. I just added you to my Google News Reader. Keep up the good work. Look forward to reading more from you in the future.

    Tina Russell

  2. @Stephen | Productivity in Context said,

    Wrote on March 5, 2008 @ 2:44 pm

    “A Comparative Explication of Two Seemingly Antithetical Approaches to Productivity”

    Ha ha ha. ROTFL!!
    That’s the title I would need to use!

  3. ReddyK - The Atma Jyoti Blog said,

    Wrote on March 5, 2008 @ 3:20 pm

    Clay,

    Aside from the useful content, the presentation of the material is inspired. I can see you are mastering the art of grabbing a reader’s attention, and also mastering the means of soaring high in social media sites. Congratulations!

  4. JEMi @ InMyHeels said,

    Wrote on March 5, 2008 @ 3:21 pm

    *stands up for a round of applause. AND the encore*

    Wow - this was a highly entertaining read. Makes me want to go upstairs into my library to read my copy of Tim’s 4HWW which, btw, I’ve been meaning to do but I have to get so many other things done.

    Enlightening AND entertaining? Very JEMi of you Clay :-P

    you got yourself and digg, a stumble and an email fwd.

    oh and - Tim won.

  5. Warren said,

    Wrote on March 5, 2008 @ 3:31 pm

    Very interesting comparison. I think my bias sways in the same way as yours. Honestly I think GTD is way too complicated a system to do what it is supposed to - Simplify.

  6. Rob in Denver said,

    Wrote on March 5, 2008 @ 4:22 pm

    It’s nice to know I am not alone.

    Although, I cast a healthy dose of skepticism toward Ferriss, too.

    Great read!

  7. Joshua Clanton - Design for the WEB said,

    Wrote on March 5, 2008 @ 4:47 pm

    Very entertaining comparison. :-)

    I think that I’m in agreement with your bias here. I prefer to eliminate tasks whenever possible. That’s partly because I’m not that efficient at running through a whole bunch of tasks yet. So maybe I’ll change my mind after figuring out a modified GTD system that works for me.

  8. caron said,

    Wrote on March 5, 2008 @ 5:19 pm

    great meta-style post and great analysis with healthy doses of deconstruction & skepticism, as said above.

  9. Slade | Shift Your Spirits said,

    Wrote on March 5, 2008 @ 5:23 pm

    Clay,

    I have to agree with both @Stephen and ReddyK — what an incredibly original presentation, man!

  10. Jonathan Mead said,

    Wrote on March 5, 2008 @ 6:55 pm

    Just got done reading this article. Great points overall. I tried to pick up David Allen’s GTD and couldn’t get past the cover. It just seemed so middle-age cubicle hell. I want something that motivates me and makes me feel empowered, and stresses whether your productivity is important or not. Thanks for the great article man. By the way, I just linked you on my blog:

    http://jonathanmead.com - Authenticity, Clarity, Balance

  11. Hunter Nuttall said,

    Wrote on March 5, 2008 @ 8:28 pm

    Clay, I just found you through IttyBiz, and this is awesome! In addition to being very funny, it’s a very helpful comparison. I’ve read 4HWW and Tim’s blog, and I hear about GTD all the time but I never knew much about it. GTD doesn’t sound like my cup of tea.

  12. Melanie Langenhan said,

    Wrote on March 5, 2008 @ 9:08 pm

    I just got back on the GTD wagon and I am glad I did. It helped me to become organized in my personal life (not my job). Now I have a 10 hour workweek at the office and enough time for other duties - and my weekly review :-)

    Your article is pretty cool and creative, it inspires me to read the 4HWW now that I finished GTD once again. But I disagree with you, Clay, in one point:

    “GTD is for keeping afloat when you’ve got a million things to do. But if you’re trying to stay afloat, do you really have time to implement a a complex productivity system? Personally, I’d rather spend my energies getting out of the situations for which GTD prepares you.”

    GTD also helps people to get a broad overview of what their lives are about, their work and their responsibilities. This is a good base for decisions what to drop and what to keep going. In my opinion, and through my own experience, GTD sets the energy free that one may need to implement systems or change situations and it reliefs the psyche.

  13. Kelly Rigby@ SHE-POWER said,

    Wrote on March 5, 2008 @ 9:37 pm

    Funny and super creative post, Clay. Personally I don’t get the attraction of GTD. As a woman with kids, this is the story of my life anyway. I already fit a million things in, I don’t need someone telling me how to fit more.

    I much prefer Tim’s book about re-thinking the way you live your life. Most of what people spend their time doing is non-essential in the long run. Add to that the time you spend worrying, thinking the same repetitive self-defeating thoughts and one could argue too many people are wasting their life anyway.

    I know I wasn’t put on this earth to be a super efficient productivity machine. I’ll leave that to David Allen.

    Scored a digg and a stumble from me too.
    Kelly

  14. Dave Navarro - Freelance Smackdown! said,

    Wrote on March 5, 2008 @ 10:05 pm

    LOVE the smackdown.

    Both GTD and 4HWW have their place, and that’s place is in a blended approach. Thanks for highlighting some of the points GTD culties sometimes gloss over …

    (PS - I love GTD. Parts of it. The parts that work for me [as with anything else]).

  15. Desika Nadadur | I Am My Own Master said,

    Wrote on March 5, 2008 @ 11:07 pm

    Hey Clay,

    Very nicely written and a very entertaining read. I have read DA’s GTD, but could not implement it fully. I felt it was just too much for me. I have heard about 4HWW, but haven’t read it yet. I will get copy of it as soon as I can.

    -Desika

  16. Laurie said,

    Wrote on March 6, 2008 @ 12:07 am

    I think we all know who won this round: Clay! K.O.!

  17. Torley said,

    Wrote on March 6, 2008 @ 2:26 am

    I was waiting for an article like this to come along, and here it is!

    I wonder if the two have ever met in person?

    Great to see your blog grow, Clay!

  18. Barbara said,

    Wrote on March 6, 2008 @ 2:14 pm

    Everyone wins this round. The smackdown format was a terrific way to get details of the two approaches on the table. Now I know Ferriss is my new hero. I’ve been selectively ignoring tv news and newspapers for about 7 years now and my quality of life-o-meter has gone through the roof. Great piece!

  19. Khurt said,

    Wrote on March 6, 2008 @ 5:48 pm

    I discovered this article via another blog. I am adding this to my feeds.

  20. Clay Collins said,

    Wrote on March 7, 2008 @ 12:40 am

    @Kurt: I’m really glad. Thanks for subscribing and for stopping by.
    @Torley: Good point. My hunch is that if they ever did meet in real life the outcome would be *slightly* less dramatic than this article.
    @Desika: Thanks for the complements on the format. 4HWW of course isn’t perfect either, but there’s lots of good ideas in there. It’s not really a productivity system (for a simple productivity system I’d reccomend Zen to Done, which has been reviewed on this site).

  21. Clay Collins said,

    Wrote on March 7, 2008 @ 12:51 am

    @Dave: I’m glad you liked it despite your love of GTD. GTD was a good read and I’m glad I read it. I think too often we focus on higher level planning that we neglect the day-to-day details, and that is what GTD is for. I made a trip to an office supply store right after reading GTD and I’m glad that I did. It’s too bad I didn’t stick to the system longer.

    @Kelly: Yeah, to me 4HWW was more about validating the notion of lifestyle design than anything else. It’s good to know that there are options, and that people have taken workable steps to create better (although sometimes unconventional) systems. Thanks for calling me out with this: “GTD is for keeping afloat when you’ve got a million things to do.” GTD is, in fact, for a lot of things.

    @Melanie: You have a really good point. People implement GTD for a variety of reasons and to a variety of effects. Thanks for

  22. Clay Collins said,

    Wrote on March 7, 2008 @ 1:04 am

    @Hunter: It was really nice of Naomi to link to me. Despite the article, GTD does have some strong points and it gets you thinking about how to tweak the little things to get big results. The problem, from my POV, is that it focuses too much on the tweaking and neglects the bigger picture. Steven Covey and others are good for that.

    @Jonathan: Nice. And thanks for linking to my blog. Seriously.

    @Josh: Yeah, I’d rather just focus on one or two big tasks each day than a whole lot of little ones. I know that some people don’t have the luxury, but I just don’t have the wherewithal to stick to it. Perhaps that’s a problem with me.

    @Rob in Denver: I like your numbers and wish I had come across them prior to writing the article. Thanks for giving the link.

    @Warrne: Yeah, the whole argument about making thing complex in order to simplify. I but some of the arguments but not all of them. Perhaps when many people talk about simplicity they’re referring to is the feeling of simplicity?

  23. Clay Collins said,

    Wrote on March 7, 2008 @ 1:07 am

    @ JEMi: I love this comment and I can somehow envision my mental image of you doing this: *stands up for a round of applause. AND the encore*. Enlightening AND entertaining *is* being very JEMi of me (or anyone). I think you own the market on that.

  24. Clay Collins said,

    Wrote on March 7, 2008 @ 1:12 am

    @ ReddyK: Thanks for the encouragement. And I’m glad that you found it inspired, even if the article was more win/lose than my usual post.

    @ Stephen: Yeah, that title was actually the first one to come to mind. Too many years in academia will do it to you.

    @ Tina: Thanks so much for subscribing. I hope I’ll make it up to you with worthwhile content.

  25. Desika Nadadur | I Am My Own Master said,

    Wrote on March 7, 2008 @ 6:29 am

    Clay,

    I have been to Zen to Done as well. I am still reading absorbing the material there. Thanks for the suggestions.

    Desika

  26. Sean John said,

    Wrote on March 9, 2008 @ 1:27 am

    I just got through David’s AudioBook today, and have been through Tim’s book about 4 times now, and it’s got me thinking — Why can’t I implement both systems?

    Instead of picking out the PROs and CONs of each system, can’t I make both work for me?

    Essentially, Tim is saying ‘outsource, outsource, outsource.’
    While Dave says, ‘Organize your life.’

    Why not organize your TO-DO’s, like Dave suggests, and further filter these into the ‘Outsource’ box, like what Tim preaches?

    Heck, if you tweak the system enough, you could possibly work 2 hour weeks, and teach both Tim and Dave a few things ;)

  27. Clay Collins said,

    Wrote on March 9, 2008 @ 5:27 am

    @Sean John: Thanks for the very interesting comment. I definately think there’s room for integration, but I also don’t think that outsourcing is the essential part of Tim’s Book either. The part on outsourcing is 26 pages of a 300+ page book. There’s a lot of other things in 4HWW and I do believe that some of it conflicts with parts of GTD. I think that largest philosophical difference between GTD and 4HWW is that Tim also advocates for selective ignorance and elimination, while David believes that we have to put all “open loops” and unfinished tasks into a system. Tim thinks we should “eliminate instead of organize,” and “create not-to-do lists,” while David believes that we should capture “all the things that need to get done–now, later, someday, big, little, or in between–into a logical system.”

    Anyway, I do think that a fusion is possible in some areas. GTD, afterall, is a system while 4HWW is more of an approach to life. But I also think that there are some real differences. But my guess is that if someone implemented 4HWW to the extent that Tim has and truly has a four hour work week (but who really does, right?!), then their workflow would be so simplified and distilled to its necessary elements that GTD wouldn’t be necessary (it would probably just be extra work). That’s just my take.

    Please let me know if you write a book called “Getting Things Done in Four Hour Work Week.” I’ll be the first to buy it :-).

  28. Paul Montwill | Sharingmatters.com said,

    Wrote on March 11, 2008 @ 2:05 pm

    Clay, I am amazed with all the little tricks you learnt when blogging. You have done a lot of study before starting this blog, ha? I liked this post a lot. I am big fan of Tim.

  29. Monika Mundell said,

    Wrote on March 12, 2008 @ 3:07 pm

    Hi Clay,

    I’ve also traversed the Internet from Naomi’s blog and have been positively surprised by your creativity and humor.

    Great post triple thumbs up!

  30. Clay Collins said,

    Wrote on March 13, 2008 @ 4:03 pm

    @Monika: Thanks so much for these kinds words. I’m glad that you stopped by. Now I’m off to visit your blog :-).

  31. Monika Mundell said,

    Wrote on March 14, 2008 @ 3:31 am

    Just letting you know, I just subscribed to your great blog. I look forward to seeing more of your wisdom in the future. ;-)

  32. Erik Lehmann said,

    Wrote on March 16, 2008 @ 12:46 am

    I have read more of 4HWW than GTD, but in keeping with the fusion theme, I would recommend, The Power of Focus, by Les Hewitt, Jack Canfield, and others. The authors solidify the concept that everything on one’s To Do or Not To Do list is a choose to rather than a have to addition to one’s commitments. What we allow to be added to our To Do list is our own choice, there is power in owning the decision to allow any commitment to invade our lists.

    Every author is selling something. If it does not offer unique perspective, it will not sell as many copies. This is the part that is all about marketing. There is a finite number of ways to repackage the same concept, before people catch on and stop spending money on relabeled Rich Dad, Poor Dad.

    I appreciate the comparison, but my gut says that both of these authors would celebrate and not debate their differences, since; their differences are what allow both of them to remain in the marketplace.

    Thank you for the platform,

    Erik

  33. Clay Collins said,

    Wrote on March 16, 2008 @ 6:12 am

    @Erik: I think that your gut’s right. Their books might suggest that they have deep philosophical differences, but I’m sure none of it’s personal. And both of their books have expanded the market for personal development products (for each other) without threatening the other’s position. Thanks for stopping by and for contributing.

    –Clay

  34. Grant Czerepak said,

    Wrote on March 20, 2008 @ 2:09 am

    I’ve attended a presentation on GTD and was immediately convinced that this was NOT the solution. I do not believe that the 7 Habits are the solution either. And Tim, he has his religion too.

    What stands out is the “certainty” of all of these techniques. As soon as someone declares certainty, the atheist in me gets its hackles up.

    What I am looking for is a process that admits that a majority of things in life have an inherent uncertainty. That sometimes considerable thought is the solution and sometimes a gut reaction is what is called for. That sometimes simplicity is the answer and sometimes complexity is the only way to the mountain top.

    If people would stop for a moment and accept the tug of war of certainty and uncertainty in their lives there would be considerably less snake oil sold in this world.

  35. Paul Montwill | Sharingmatters.com said,

    Wrote on March 20, 2008 @ 5:26 am

    Grant, the best thing is to take what is good for you from all these methods and create your own package.

  36. Grant Czerepak said,

    Wrote on March 20, 2008 @ 9:51 am

    I reject the methods, because I reject their premises. The reasoning is deductive instead of inductive. If I am going to do it myself I am going to observe, hypothesize, test and conclude. I am going to find my own enlightenment through my own experience.

  37. Erik Lehmann said,

    Wrote on March 20, 2008 @ 5:01 pm

    Does anyone else find themselves reading only books they agree with, or books that agree with them? It seems as though this debate would be well aided by a Myers-Briggs assessment as a way to predict which set of concepts would be most appropriate for any individual.

  38. Jared Goralnick said,

    Wrote on March 20, 2008 @ 8:10 pm

    Clay, to echo everyone else here–great job on your blog–you’re pretty darn entertaining and it’s great to see you contributing so well to this productivity space. Now onto the meat:

    I think there is a place for both systems, but it does require a lot of trimming…of both. The main lesson from GTD for me was to get the stuff out of my head and into a system I trust

    I think that that part was even a big part of Tim’s workflow. For instance, he spent a few days trying to come up with his 80/20 or 95/5 in terms of what he wanted in his life. To do that he had to do some sort of mind-dump, figure out how he was spending his time, determine his responsibilities, etc. Then he could act upon it. The steps he took next were very different than David’s (Tim was ELIMINATE AUTOMATE OUTSOURCE as opposed to PROCESS ACT REVIEW), but they required getting things out into the open. And, of course, in the process of eliminating, automating, and outsourcing, you still have to process stuff, act on it, and check up on it. GTD helps to get organized–to help you focus on the task at hand (”mind like water”). Tim is a natural, probably a genius, when it comes to discipline. Most people need a system to have that focus and clarity of what to do next. That’s where GTD plays a role.

    Then of course there’s the 4HWW. And I readily agree with you that finding ways to do what’s the best and most exciting use of your time is what it’s all about. Tim offers such great, tangible advice for that, and plenty of reasoning for why.

    So, I’ll try not to go on and on here, I’m just suggesting that there’s a need for some sort of organization and GTD can help with that. The 4HWW was so impactful for me because I had a system in place. Putting the two together has made my days so much more productive with a lot more time.

    Cheers.

  39. Brick Andrews said,

    Wrote on March 21, 2008 @ 12:10 pm

    Grant, I admire your determination to not take anything on “faith”, and that kind of objectivity is often missing, especially when we “want” to believe in something. For example, I might desperately want to believe in the 4-Hour Workweek because I want to have more fulfillment while working much less. However that bias does not make what Ferriss is saying “true” or “correct”. I shook my head at a number of things he wrote about, but I think there was some good stuff to consider in there, just like in GTD.

    To “reject the methods” outright seems rather harsh and extreme. There is nothing stopping you from testing the methods set out in both books yourself. I am sure you might find some things work for you and others do not. I don’t think it is necessary for us to develop every single method, process and idea ourselves - in fact I find that rather inefficient. Surely we can make larger gains by building on the learning of others. For example, I accept the concept and application of addition and multiplication. I would hate to have to forgo their use until I developed number theory from scratch for myself!

  40. Grant Czerepak said,

    Wrote on March 21, 2008 @ 10:26 pm

    I highly recommend everyone taking the time to read “Siddhartha” by Herman Hess. I will concede that every technique can teach us to discipline ourselves in different ways, however discipline does not necessarily bring us any closer to personal enlightenment. We may follow religion, self-help, personal development, organizational techniques, the sciences and on and on, but following the gurus who found their own enlightenment through these disciplines will not necessarily enlighten you because personal enlightenment, as Taoism says, cannot be articulated by them to you. You have to ultimately understand yourself and find your own discipline. Not only build with, but extend others work.

    In my own blog I look at many disciplines for understanding systems. I read the works of many so called gurus and find more and more that they are all describing the same thing. I could take GTD and fit it in. I could take 4DWW and fit it in. What I describe is my best effort to articulate my understanding as I develop my personal discipline.

    What I get tired of is guru’s who are “certain” or “guarantee” that their system will work for you. Every single person in this world is as unique as everyone else. That means that every single person encounters a personal exception in life that no other person will experience. You have to find your own solution to that exception as no one else will understand your exception or be able to design a solution for you. But when you discipline yourself to handle what is already understood and then take the next step to handle your own exception by yourself you will achieve personal enlightenment. No one can give that to you and no one can take it away from you. You can share it with others, but ultimately you are a fraud if you claim certainty that your enlightenment will handle the unique exception in anyone else’s life.

  41. Paul Montwill | Sharingmatters.com said,

    Wrote on March 23, 2008 @ 9:32 am

    Grant, I couldn’t have written it better! Indeed, “Siddhartha” is a great book. I also agree that we should build our own package of methods and techniques and find what is best for us. All these books about how to earn your first million or be successful should be ignored. They are just biographies. They say “My life is great. You should live the same way as I do and your life will be great too”. Lies.

  42. Damon L. said,

    Wrote on April 1, 2008 @ 11:21 pm

    Ummm… WTF Grant? Chill dude. It’s a book, it’s only a book.

    I like dreaming that my life might be a certain way, but until that happens I have to make sure I pay the bills and provide for my family. Tim’s book is inspiring to some degree, but really… If everyone in the world did what he is doing then we’d be a planet full of people wanting all the other people to do actual work. Craziness.

  43. Grant Czerepak said,

    Wrote on April 1, 2008 @ 11:51 pm

    You hit it on the head, Damon.

    The 4DWW is only a book. GTD is only a book. 7HoHEP is only a book.

    Heck. The Bible, the Koran, the Talmud, the Eightfold Path, the Tao Te Ching, the Vedas, Das Kapital ARE ONLY BOOKS!

    Wow. Talk about a major epiphany.

    And the older these books get the less relevant they are because they are static as are their advocates, while our understanding of the universe is dynamic and growing.

    Become a Skeptic, it is a healthy state of mind and you’ll find yourself able to live with the uncertainty of human knowledge.

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