The Mind Like Water Myth: A Dialog Between Bruce Lee, A Productivity Guru, and Others

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Clay

All fixed set patterns are incapable of adaptability or pliability. The truth is outside of all fixed patterns.
-Bruce Lee

In Getting Things Done, productivity guru David Allen discuses the benefits of having a "Mind Like Water." Here’s the quotation . . .

In karate there is an image that’s used to define the position of perfect readiness: "mind like water." Imagine throwing a pebble into a still pond. How does the water respond? The answer is, totally appropriately to the force and mass of the input; then it returns to calm. It doesn’t overreact or underreact.
-David Allen

He then explains why Mind Like Water is beneficial. . .

Anything that causes you to overreact or underreact can control you, and often does. Responding inappropriately to your e-mail, your staff, your projects, your unread magazines, your thoughts about what you need to do, your children, or your boss will lead to less effective results than you’d like. Most people give either more or less attention to things than they deserve, simply because they don’t operate with a "mind like water."
-David Allen

A Mind Like Water is a beautiful thing and a grounded mode of existence. I’ve been there before, and it’s great. I want to make this one thing clear: the possibility of having a mind like water is not, itself, a myth.

So what is the Mind Like Water Myth? Here goes . . .

[I]f you get seriously far out of that state–and start to feel out of control, stressed out, unfocused, bored, and stuck–do you have the ability to get yourself back into it? That’s where the methodology of [my Productivity system] will have the greatest impact on your life, by showing you how to get back to "mind like water," with all your resources and faculties functioning at a maximum level.
-David Allen

The Mind Like Water Myth is the myth that Productivity — or a Productivity system — is the path, and that Mind Like Water is the destination.

The possession of anything begins in the mind
-Bruce Lee

I believe Bruce is right: possession of a mind like water begins in the mind. It’s not productivity first, mind like water second. It’s the other way around.

When there is freedom from mechanical conditioning, there is simplicity. The classical man is just a bundle of routine, ideas and tradition. If you follow the classical pattern, you are understanding the routine, the tradition, the shadow - you are not understanding yourself.
-Bruce Lee

The Mind Like Water myth is the myth is that any productivity system can be the starting point for having “all your resources and faculties functioning at maximum level.”

The myth is that a water-tight task-handling methodology, an elaborate folder system, a clockwork method for handling your inbox, a label-maker, and a set of routines come first. . .

Efficiency, which is doing things right, is irrelevant until you work on the right things.
-Peter Drucker

You shouldn’t be trying to do more in each day, trying to fill every second with a work fidget of some type. … [T]he person who…develops an elaborate system of folder rules … is efficient on some perverse level. … Doing something well does not make it important … What you do is infinitely more important than how you do it.
-Timothy Ferriss

It’s not that Productivity systems are bad. Most of us impose organization on our lives in in an effort to stay focused, keep on track. And this is a GOOD thing. But the myth that external organization comes first and that mind-like-water comes second is, however, misleading. The myth is that capturing everything in your life and placing it in a productivity system is a starting point for the clear and fearless mind of a karate master.

. . . using no way as a way, using no limitations as a limitation.
-Bruce Lee

Here’s the problem: if we need an external system to have a mind like water, then that mind is a pot of gold at the end of a very long rainbow that many of us may never reach.

From form to formless and from finite to infinite. Don’t be confined by limitations and forms.
-Bruce Lee

This, I believe, is the truth: a mind like water must come first. Living in the present must come first.

As you think, so shall you become.
-Bruce Lee

The few people I know who’s minds are consistently like water, who have simplicity of thought and zen-like focus and instinct, do not need a complex system to attain the mind-like-water state.

It’s actually the other way around: their production, the fruit of their creation, started with a clear mind. The mind like water was the path and the productivity was the destination.

The moment you rely too much on theory or doctrines or elaborate procedures it disables groundedness, intuition, instinct, adaptability and spontaneity.
-Xuan Xian

This myth isn’t limited to any Productivity system (including Getting Things Done): it is a subtle but incredibly pervasive meme running through our culture: than a clutter-free environment, a pill, a system of inboxes, or a Productivity system can give us maximum and utmost mental clarity.

In [a] society which confuses work and productivity, the necessity of producing has always been an enemy of the desire to create.
-Raoul Vaneigem

The myth is that clarity starts outside of us, and that we should produce an (often incredibly) high level of external organization in order to experience internal organization.

Simplicity is the outward sign and symbol of depth of thought.
-Lin Yutang

Mind like water comes first.

Life is really simple, but we insist on making it complicated.
-Confucius

Focus your attention on the Now and tell me what problem you have at this moment. I am not getting any answer because it is impossible to have a problem when your attention is fully in the Now. A situation that needs to be either dealt with or accepted - yes. Why make it into a problem? Why make anything into a problem? Isn’t life challenging enough as it is? What do you need problems for? The mind unconsciously loves problems because they give you an identity of sorts. This is normal, and it is insane. "Problem" means that you are dwelling on a situation mentally without there being a true intention or possibility of taking action now and that you are unconsciously making it part of your sense of self.
-Eckhart Tolle

What do you think?

Final Note: This article is not about the value of productivity systems. I have benefited from the ideas of Productivity systems and I have no doubt that such systems have helped thousands of people become more efficient, perhaps more effective, and that they have led to reduced anxiety about unfinished tasks given good plans for getting things done.

I am grateful to you for reading.

~Clay

[tags]getting things done, organizing our lives, mind like water, Bruce Lee, David Allen, productivity, productivity systems, Eckhart Tolle, Timothy Ferriss[/tags]

Posted on 21 Feb, 2008

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21 Comments so far »

Paul Montwill | Sharingmatters.com said,

Wrote on February 22, 2008 @ 9:38 am

I’m impressed, Clay! I like that your wrote: “Mind like water comes first.” It is true. No matter how skilled you are and what productivity systems you use, if emotions play the key role, you are not going to reach your targets. Your point of view is very fresh. I am tired of books like “How to earn your $1,000,000″ as authors assume that all of the readers are mature enough to implement their strategies and techniques.

You can read 50 books about GTD and still be in the same point. There are three groups of people:
1. The ones who successfully reach their goals. They usually don’t talk to much about what they want to achieve. They just do it.
2. The ones who talk a bit about reaching their goals, who work very hard but are often not that successful as the first group.
3. This is the largest group - they talk a lot, they plan a lot, they read thousands of blogs and books but don’t achieve.

The first group have usually minds like water - crystal clear view of their goals and the way to get there. Productivity systems only increase their efficiency. The second, struggle but is close. GTD may be helpful for them but working on the mind like water should comes first. The third - emotions play a key role in their decision making process. They get excited very quickly but are not focused on actions. Passion and vision is important but DOING needs to comes next. Doesn’t matter if we talk about business, personal life or working for the local community.

Very interesting video, Clay. Do you have more? :)

My $0.02.
Clay Collins said,

Wrote on February 23, 2008 @ 4:59 am

@Paul: thanks for the comments and for the added layer of analysis. Unfortunately, I don’t have any more videos :-(, although I bet you could find something if you searched around a bit on DailyMotion, YouTube, or MetaCafe.

I’m glad you came back.

~Clay
JEMi @ InMyHeels said,

Wrote on February 24, 2008 @ 4:19 pm

Mind like water comes first… This was a great read on my Sunday morning. In searching for more on such a consistent basis, I’ve stumbled upon the systems and the rules which, in themselves, can be helpful but didn’t feel like the organic starting point I was looking for. This way of thinking, mind like water first, offers me a clarity and I’m going to try to reroute my way of approaching things using this valuable lesson. I do see and understand how easy it is to get it backwards.. Perhaps with this bit of enlightment I can figure out a way for me to start from within instead. Lol Come to think of it, its so simple yet tricky for me to do.. I’ve been operating from ‘the problems out’ for as long as I can remember. Thank you for this Clay- its an excellent post
Mike said,

Wrote on February 25, 2008 @ 8:24 pm

Very cool post. I learned more about Bruce Lee in your article than I ever knew before. I’ve just subscribed.
Your concept of the “Mind Like Water” is very interesting. I’ve just started a blog that also discussed the “Mind Like Water” construct. However, I suggest that the construct is insufficient for productivity and therefore neither an end or a means to an end. If you have a moment, take a look at my blog and give some feedback … http://www.zendonut.com … thanks.
Marelisa said,

Wrote on February 25, 2008 @ 10:36 pm

I think that this is basically the idea that you have to put yourself into harmony first: that is, life flows from being, into doing, into having. By quieting the mind–through meditation or any activity that you perform mindfully, it can even be going for a walk–you’re able to act from the place of stillness within. Any action performed from a sense of calm and a knowing that you’re part of everything that surrounds you will get you far better results than action that comes from anxiety, frustration, fear, competition, and so on.

That being said, once you manage to put yourself into harmony, if your surroundings are clutter-free and you have a great folder system, things will go that much more smoothly for you. I love the quotes you included here.
Tannage said,

Wrote on February 26, 2008 @ 12:21 pm

Clay,

Too true, to be fully productive, you have to start from a “Mind Like Water” state as it is from here that you have the full command of all your faculties.

I’d like to add a thought. To stay in this state, one must first become aware of it. All of us occasionally hit this state in our daily lives from time to time, but few of us actually become aware of the fact that we are in it. Once you are aware of it, you have a frame of reference from which to work and can therefore understand whether or not you are acting with a “Mind Like Water”. When I first started GTD I thought I knew, but quickly discovered that the illusion of “Mind Like Water” productivity, is quite simple, procrastination.

Unfortunately because everyone is different and perceives things differently, simply describing this state is not enough to ensure that an audience will understand it. True understanding of “Mind Like Water” comes from having experienced it.

How do we experience it? The best way is to simply do. Start up a GTD system and be disciplined about keeping to its principles and sooner or later the state will be reached. You may not stay there for long, but at least you will have an idea of what to shoot for when you work your system.
Chris Regnery said,

Wrote on February 26, 2008 @ 7:03 pm

I find it odd that you decided to quote Eckhart Tolle, who should disagree with Bruce Lee.

Tolle teaches us that you are NOT your mind. That once you are truly awake, you will know you are aware of your mind, and to be aware of it, you can not be your mind.
Clay Collins said,

Wrote on February 26, 2008 @ 7:25 pm

@Tannage: I like that you said “simply describing this [Mind Like Water] state is not enough to ensure that an audience will understand it.” This is very true. I have an upcoming post scheduled: an interview with my spiritual teacher (although he would never call himself that). The interview is basically a guide to meditation, and a humble starting point for obtaining mind like water. I believe that there are many ways to get there, however.

@Chris: Interesting point. What do you think would be the subject of their disagreement? My take is that you can simultaneously have a mind like water while still knowing that you are not your mind. Tolle does think mind is useful for things like standardized test taking, and doing your job. And given that the mind isn’t bad (and actually has some value) when put in it’s proper place, wouldn’t we want our minds to be like water when we actually need to use them? Bruce Lee said “The possession of anything begins in the mind.” It’s worth noting that Tolle uses words like “ego” and “mind” and “being” in ways that that don’t directly translate to western psychology, and the same is probably true of Bruce Lee’s language. It’s hard to know whether Bruce Lee’s “mind” is the same as Tolle’s “mind.
Chris Regnery said,

Wrote on February 27, 2008 @ 12:47 am

Very true, the translation could be an interesting factor.

But, to answer your question, if translation wasn’t a factor, and they did disagree, I think it would be on the grounds of where the importance lies.

Sure, the mind might be useful for standardized testing, but if you were truly awake/conscious/enlightened, how important would standardized testing be to you? I can tell you that it probably wouldn’t be at the top of my priority list.
Clay Collins said,

Wrote on February 27, 2008 @ 1:13 am

@Chris. Tolle says: “Your mind is an instrument, a tool. It is there to be used for a specific task, and when the task is completed, you lay it down.” I’m glad that I went to college, and I’m grateful that my mind was there to help me take the SAT. Tolle needs his mind to find the words to write his book, and to answer Oprah’s questions :-). But, all in all, I’m really not in a place to argue whether or not a truly enlightened would take a standardized test. I’ll end with some more Tolle quotations:

“The mind in itself is not dysfunctional. It is a wonderful tool. Dysfunction sets in when you seek your self in it and mistake it for who you are. It then becomes the egoic mind and takes over your whole life.”

“The more we learn about the workings of the body, the more we realize just how vast is the intelligence at work within it and how little we know. When the mind reconnects with that, it becomes a most wonderful tool. It then serves something greater than itself.”
Caron said,

Wrote on February 27, 2008 @ 2:03 pm

This is a great post. Bruce Lee is a great teacher, as is Tolle.
I’m glad the distinction between “mind like water” and productivity systems is being made explicitly and not lumped together in a mushy new age way. I imagine both are very important, but require two very different types of training. Mainly hypothesizing though, as I am a newbie to both. ;)
Chris Regnery said,

Wrote on February 27, 2008 @ 4:22 pm

Tolle was truly blissful when he had no identity sitting in the park. His identity of a spiritual teacher takes some of that bliss away, but it is that selflessness that he uses to help others. So it does make you question some things.

I believe Tolle preaches that because it is a far more approachable way of going about things, albeit halfheartedly.

Personally, I use my mind often. I am not as adept as I’d like to be in always staying in the present moment.

But looking at Bruce Lee’s quote of “As you think, so shall you become.” I do think Tolle would disagree with it, as long as the translation wasn’t off.

It is similar to Descartes’s Cogito, or “I think, therefore I am.” Sartre, later said, “…the consciousness that says ‘I think’ is precisely not the consciousness that thinks…” Tolle supports Sartre’s line of thinking in the matter.

So you are not your thoughts, and you can not become them. Doesn’t this go against Bruce Lee and his quote?
Tannage said,

Wrote on February 27, 2008 @ 5:41 pm

If we assume that that Bruce’s take on this, is influenced by his study of the martial arts, his statement of “As you think so shall you become” could very well be referring to intent. Intent is a very important part of the martial arts, and someone at as high a level as he was would have understood its power and use but intent is not thought, it falls somewhere between a feeling and a knowing but it is not necessarily a conscious thing. One can do a form or kata without actually thinking of the next action in the sequence or indeed not thinking at all.

To use a very British example, I may form the intent to make a cup of tea, but I may not necessarily think about it. Some part of you decides you want a cup of tea, and you may very well think “I want a cup of tea” but those are two distinct events. I might even go through the actions and acutally make the cup of tea, but no thought needs to be present during that process.

If Bruce was referring to thought, then Tolle would indeed disagree, but I think he was referring to intent, which does not involve thought, in which case they would agree.
Chris Regnery said,

Wrote on February 28, 2008 @ 2:28 am

Thought can be conscious or subconscious in my opinion. Intent to make a cup of tea would definitely involve the mind.

Furthermore, you could make the case where you can get so lost in playing a piece of music that you do not think about it. In fact, if you do start to consciously think about it, you could easily mess up.

It begs the question, is that using the mind? Yes, as your muscles can’t move on their own. And you need conscious thought to get to that level, or to learn how to make tea, in the first place.

This could get awfully deep, ha ha ha.
Evan said,

Wrote on March 5, 2008 @ 10:16 pm

Hi Clay,

Thanks for a wonderful post. I found it because Naomi Dunford put a link to it.

You are absolutedly right about mind like water. No external tricks or tips lead us to serenity.

Btw I’m a fan of Krishnamurti, whose views were quite similar to Bruce Lee’s. They actually met and had a dialogue on one occasion.

There is many a problem from words. Eg when different things are meant by ‘mind’ (this is capable of almost as many interpretations as ‘love’). Thus it seems better to use extended paraphrases. Something like: our perception of what is should not be confused with our reasoning about and imagination based on this perception. Both are useful. Or put another way: with mind like water we will use to our benefit the various folder systems and tricks available to us.

Another tricky word is infinite. Bruce Lee wasn’t physically infinite. Avoid grandiosity, love your limitations. This is the path to radiant health.
Nez said,

Wrote on March 6, 2008 @ 8:04 pm

A fascinating post, indeed — and the discussion in the comments is at least just as good, if not better :-)

(Found you through Naomi’s link)

I would think for some people GTD does begin with the getting one’s mind to be like water, to be able to understand what they’re doing and why and for others it will be the other way around: get the GTD system going to free you mind, enabling it to become like water — a case of the chicken or the egg?

In the end, it seems like we want to be somewhere in the middle (state of Zen, Middle Path, whatever), where our internal thoughts and external processes are synchronized to some degree, allowing us to achieve our potential, whatever that may be.

Some of the comments seem to be talking about “muscle memory”, knowing how to do something without needing to think about it because the actions become ingrained in our “muscles” through practice.

Take dancing as another example. Like martial arts, when we’re rank beginners, we have no idea what we’re doing — we do the steps, but we have no idea how bad we are. Then as we get better, we know what we’re doing wrong — we become conscious of our lame dancing skills. Then as we keep progressing we learn more and more steps — we get better and better, becoming conscious that we’re pretty good. For those of us who advance even more, we may even become unconscious of how good we are, e.g. you go up to a dancer to ask how they did that step, and they can’t tell you because they were not thinking of doing it, it just happened.

And guess what the truly advanced dancers always do from time to time? Work on the basics.

I would say achieving GTD also takes practice, and when that happens MLW (Mind like Water) occurs. However, as you say, achieving MLW first is also possible, making GTD happen possibly easier?

Anyway, I think I’m rambling. Great post!
Clay Collins said,

Wrote on March 7, 2008 @ 12:30 am

Hi Nez,

Your point about muscle memory is a good one. Thanks for adding this consideration to the discussion.

Warm Regards,
Clay
Clay Collins said,

Wrote on March 7, 2008 @ 12:44 am

@Evan: I’m also a fan of Krishnamurti. Anyway, I really like your observations about words, and also this: “with mind like water we will use to our benefit the various folder systems and tricks available to us.” And this: “Another tricky word is infinite. Bruce Lee wasn’t physically infinite. Avoid grandiosity, love your limitations. This is the path to radiant health.” Thank you, really, for spending the time to write these insightful comments.
Tabithate said,

Wrote on March 24, 2008 @ 1:47 am

thank you, dude
Kerouacky said,

Wrote on March 29, 2008 @ 6:30 pm

Thank you Clay for this interesting and enlightening page.

I agree wholeheartedly with the concept that mind-like-water is an ideal metaphor to illustrate an/the wisest state to operate from. I just wanted to put my two cents into this wonderful conversation. I haven’t read Tolle, but from the quotes posted here, I understand where he comes from regarding the mind as tool. I have read Bruce Lee, and my opinion is that Bruce Lee’s thoughts on the mind are very similar to Tolle’s and that any confusion is mostly semantic (insofar as the limited information I have available).

I also find the comment about muscle memory interesting. I agree with it on some levels, but this does not explain many styles of music, specifically improvisational jazz. Often the music moves at such a pace that proper thought just isn’t possible. If this is the case, and the mind cannot process the information (which notes to play), who exactly is making the decision? I believe the decision comes from somewhere deeper. The same may be said of skilled martial artists. If you have the privilege of sparring with one of these people, you quickly understand that they react before they really know what they’ve done. This is obviously part muscle memory, but there is more to it, as a skilled opponent is able to strike virtually unpredictably, and I’ve witnessed skilled karate masters successfully defend themselves (at a rate way beyond chance). Anyway, very thought-provoking discussion, and I’ll stay tuned.
AJK said,

Wrote on July 24, 2008 @ 7:10 am

I cringe every time I hear people talk about Bruce Lee and karate in the same breath. Bruce was Chinese. He did kungfu before he did his own thing.

Now I have that off my chest, back to the interesting post by Clay. Kungfu is influenced by Buddhism and Taoism and this is where Bruce’s philosophies will come from. In Taichi we are taught of the three arrivals: The mind, the feet and the hands/body. Intention leads you. Bruce Lee’s quote refers to intention.

Now we can talk for hours about The Mind, The Body, Free Will, Programs, etc. but there is only one truth; knowledge empowers. It is not about the programs and it is not about “if you can choose to have a mind like water”. Programs are support structures (it is not you) and thinking you can be like water without knowing how to do it (the knowledge), you will continue to fail.

Knowing how to do something “creates” a calmer mind, because your mind is not “running around” looking for solutions and trying to get things done. They are getting done.

Learning the skill of not taking on more things when you get more effective will be the second crucial point if you ever want to reach the point of “calm like water”.

Lets use your water analogy. You are sitting in a boat with water leaking through a hole. The water is your workload. You can learn effective ways of clearing that water, but if you don’t stop the leak, it will replaced the space you created with more water. And this is the problem. The more effective we become, the more we take on. It is an endless cycle.

You not only have to gain knowledge in dealing with work effectively, but you have to learn when to say no.

If the mind is like water, then it is calm, it is stormy, it is fast, it is cold and it is warm. Don’t get stuck in the stormy bits and don’t get stuck in the calm bits. Do what water do and flow.