Now I have that off my chest, back to the interesting post by Clay. Kungfu is influenced by Buddhism and Taoism and this is where Bruce’s philosophies will come from. In Taichi we are taught of the three arrivals: The mind, the feet and the hands/body. Intention leads you. Bruce Lee’s quote refers to intention.

Now we can talk for hours about The Mind, The Body, Free Will, Programs, etc. but there is only one truth; knowledge empowers. It is not about the programs and it is not about “if you can choose to have a mind like water”. Programs are support structures (it is not you) and thinking you can be like water without knowing how to do it (the knowledge), you will continue to fail.

Knowing how to do something “creates” a calmer mind, because your mind is not “running around” looking for solutions and trying to get things done. They are getting done.

Learning the skill of not taking on more things when you get more effective will be the second crucial point if you ever want to reach the point of “calm like water”.

Lets use your water analogy. You are sitting in a boat with water leaking through a hole. The water is your workload. You can learn effective ways of clearing that water, but if you don’t stop the leak, it will replaced the space you created with more water. And this is the problem. The more effective we become, the more we take on. It is an endless cycle.

You not only have to gain knowledge in dealing with work effectively, but you have to learn when to say no.

If the mind is like water, then it is calm, it is stormy, it is fast, it is cold and it is warm. Don’t get stuck in the stormy bits and don’t get stuck in the calm bits. Do what water do and flow.

I agree wholeheartedly with the concept that mind-like-water is an ideal metaphor to illustrate an/the wisest state to operate from. I just wanted to put my two cents into this wonderful conversation. I haven’t read Tolle, but from the quotes posted here, I understand where he comes from regarding the mind as tool. I have read Bruce Lee, and my opinion is that Bruce Lee’s thoughts on the mind are very similar to Tolle’s and that any confusion is mostly semantic (insofar as the limited information I have available).

I also find the comment about muscle memory interesting. I agree with it on some levels, but this does not explain many styles of music, specifically improvisational jazz. Often the music moves at such a pace that proper thought just isn’t possible. If this is the case, and the mind cannot process the information (which notes to play), who exactly is making the decision? I believe the decision comes from somewhere deeper. The same may be said of skilled martial artists. If you have the privilege of sparring with one of these people, you quickly understand that they react before they really know what they’ve done. This is obviously part muscle memory, but there is more to it, as a skilled opponent is able to strike virtually unpredictably, and I’ve witnessed skilled karate masters successfully defend themselves (at a rate way beyond chance). Anyway, very thought-provoking discussion, and I’ll stay tuned.

Your point about muscle memory is a good one. Thanks for adding this consideration to the discussion.

Warm Regards,
Clay

(Found you through Naomi’s link)

I would think for some people GTD does begin with the getting one’s mind to be like water, to be able to understand what they’re doing and why and for others it will be the other way around: get the GTD system going to free you mind, enabling it to become like water — a case of the chicken or the egg?

In the end, it seems like we want to be somewhere in the middle (state of Zen, Middle Path, whatever), where our internal thoughts and external processes are synchronized to some degree, allowing us to achieve our potential, whatever that may be.

Some of the comments seem to be talking about “muscle memory”, knowing how to do something without needing to think about it because the actions become ingrained in our “muscles” through practice.

Take dancing as another example. Like martial arts, when we’re rank beginners, we have no idea what we’re doing — we do the steps, but we have no idea how bad we are. Then as we get better, we know what we’re doing wrong — we become conscious of our lame dancing skills. Then as we keep progressing we learn more and more steps — we get better and better, becoming conscious that we’re pretty good. For those of us who advance even more, we may even become unconscious of how good we are, e.g. you go up to a dancer to ask how they did that step, and they can’t tell you because they were not thinking of doing it, it just happened.

And guess what the truly advanced dancers always do from time to time? Work on the basics.

I would say achieving GTD also takes practice, and when that happens MLW (Mind like Water) occurs. However, as you say, achieving MLW first is also possible, making GTD happen possibly easier?

Anyway, I think I’m rambling. Great post!

Thanks for a wonderful post. I found it because Naomi Dunford put a link to it.

You are absolutedly right about mind like water. No external tricks or tips lead us to serenity.

Btw I’m a fan of Krishnamurti, whose views were quite similar to Bruce Lee’s. They actually met and had a dialogue on one occasion.

There is many a problem from words. Eg when different things are meant by ‘mind’ (this is capable of almost as many interpretations as ‘love’). Thus it seems better to use extended paraphrases. Something like: our perception of what is should not be confused with our reasoning about and imagination based on this perception. Both are useful. Or put another way: with mind like water we will use to our benefit the various folder systems and tricks available to us.

Another tricky word is infinite. Bruce Lee wasn’t physically infinite. Avoid grandiosity, love your limitations. This is the path to radiant health.

Furthermore, you could make the case where you can get so lost in playing a piece of music that you do not think about it. In fact, if you do start to consciously think about it, you could easily mess up.

It begs the question, is that using the mind? Yes, as your muscles can’t move on their own. And you need conscious thought to get to that level, or to learn how to make tea, in the first place.

This could get awfully deep, ha ha ha.

To use a very British example, I may form the intent to make a cup of tea, but I may not necessarily think about it. Some part of you decides you want a cup of tea, and you may very well think “I want a cup of tea” but those are two distinct events. I might even go through the actions and acutally make the cup of tea, but no thought needs to be present during that process.

If Bruce was referring to thought, then Tolle would indeed disagree, but I think he was referring to intent, which does not involve thought, in which case they would agree.

I believe Tolle preaches that because it is a far more approachable way of going about things, albeit halfheartedly.

Personally, I use my mind often. I am not as adept as I’d like to be in always staying in the present moment.

But looking at Bruce Lee’s quote of “As you think, so shall you become.” I do think Tolle would disagree with it, as long as the translation wasn’t off.

It is similar to Descartes’s Cogito, or “I think, therefore I am.” Sartre, later said, “…the consciousness that says ‘I think’ is precisely not the consciousness that thinks…” Tolle supports Sartre’s line of thinking in the matter.

So you are not your thoughts, and you can not become them. Doesn’t this go against Bruce Lee and his quote?